Tuesday, February 26, 2013

Atheism and Morality


    What do atheists think about morality? Many would say, nothing in particular. Atheism is nothing more than lack of belief in a deity. It implies nothing about anything else, so they say. The claim, however, deserves to be examined closely.
    What do atheists think? We can take as our authority on the subject Mr. Dan Barker. A former evangelical preacher turned atheist, he is now the co-president of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, the largest organization of atheists and agnostics in America. During his Christian days he attended Azusa Pacific College, a Christian institution of higher learning located in California, and worked for a number of years as an evangelist and Christian musician. Since becoming an atheist he and his first wife (who remains a committed Christian) divorced, and he married Annie Laurie Gaylor, the other co-president of the Foundation and the daughter of Anne Gayor, who is herself a distinguished atheist. Mr. Barker travels widely and frequently engages in public debates with leading Christian apologists. His book, godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists, comes with the enthusiastic endorsements of such well-known figures as Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins.
Thus Mr. Barker is uniquely positioned to discuss both sides of the issue.

    The book is both entertaining and informative. Mr. Barker tells us a great deal about contemporary atheism. He explains to us, for instance, the meaning of the word "atheist": "It turns out that atheism means much less than I had thought. It is merely the lack of theism. It is not a philosophy of life and it offers no values. It predicts nothing of morality or motives" (p. 97). He goes on to say that even though atheism, per se, implies nothing about morality, most atheists do, in fact, "want to go beyond zero" and "embrace a positive philosophy such as humanism, feminism or another naturalistic ethical system. Or, they will promote charity, philanthropy, learning, science, beauty, art – all those human activities that enhance life." But he is careful to add, "But to be an atheist, you don't need any positive philosophy at all or need to be a good person. You are an atheist if you lack a belief in a god" (Ibid.).
    Make no mistake about it, Mr. Barker reassures us that most atheists are indeed good people. "Since leaving fundamentalism I have noticed that contrary to what I used to preach, most atheists seem to be deeply concerned with human values" (p. 99). But how do they reconcile this deep concern with their non-belief in God? What is the basis for their ethics? Mr. Barker tells us "We atheists find our basis for morality in nature" (p. 213). He says "Most atheists think moral values are real, but that does not mean that they are 'objective' . . . Most atheists think that values, though not objective things in themselves, can be objectively justified by reference to the real world. Our actions have consequences, and these consequences can be objectively measured" (p. 213).
    Mr. Barker goes on to qualify this statement somewhat: "Although most atheists accept the importance of morality, this is not conceding that morality exists in the universe – that it is a cosmic object waiting to be discovered. The word 'morality' is just a label for a concept, and concepts exist only in minds" (p. 214). But this involves Mr. Barker in a contradiction. Do values refer to something in the real world, or do they only exist in the mind? Do they describe objective reality or do they not?
    How, then, can Mr. Barker objectively justify values "by reference to the real world"? He claims that it is because "actions have consequences, and the consequences can be objectively measured." But the devil, as they say, is in the details. First of all, how does he conceive of "the real world"? He tells us: "'Nature' . . . means something. Darwinism shows us that all living organisms are the result of a natural evolutionary process. We have been fashioned by the laws of nature" (p. 219). He then proceeds to explain how evolution works: "It is design by extinction, but the way a changing environment automatically disallows organisms that happen not to be adapted, leaving the 'fittest' behind, if any" (Ibid.). Perhaps global warming is nature's way of "automatically disallowing" the human race as "not adapted"! But to continue: "We are not above nature. We are not just a part of nature. We are nature. We are natural creatures in a natural environment" (p. 220).
    One would think that any "naturalistic ethical system" would lead straight to Social Darwinism. But then Mr. Barker tells us, "Humanists think we should do good for goodness' sake, not for the selfish prospect or reaping individual rewards or avoiding punishment" (p. 220). We are relieved that Mr. Barker wishes to extricate himself from the law of the jungle, but we fear that he has taken an irrational leap of faith here. Why would any rational, thinking human being, being persuaded that Mr. Barker's description of nature is accurate, not want to pursue good "for the selfish prospect of reaping individual rewards or avoiding punishment"? After all, on Mr. Barker's scheme of things, isn't life all about preserving self?
    Mr. Barker practically admits that atheists have no rational basis for the kind of altruism that he advocates. Describing the good deeds that atheists actually do perform, he says "Whatever the moral motivation may be it likely originates in a mind that is deeply concerned with fairness and compassion, love for real human beings and concern for this world, not merely a rational approach to truth that rejects arguments for a supernatural being" (p. 100). He tells us that "To be moral, atheists have access to the simple tools of reason and kindness. There is no cosmic code book directing our actions" (p. 214). Quite remarkably he tries to argue that "Compassion is, after all, a characteristic of being human . . . We are not corrupt, evil creatures" (p. 216). But just previously he had said, "Jefferson may have been wrong to call compassion an 'instinct' because many appear not to have it – it seems optional" (p. 215). So what is Mr. Barker's answer to them? Aside from the criminal justice system he says that we "can choose to actively exhort others to join us in expressing our innate feelings of altruism and compassion" (p. 216). Ah, once a preacher always a preacher! The only problem here is that it is hard to see how Mr. Barker can exhort anyone to a life of virtue if there is no real, objective, universally binding rule of conduct and there is an immediate benefit to be gained by being selfish.
    It is undoubtedly true, as Mr. Barker tells us, that most atheists want to embrace "a positive philosophy such as humanism, feminism or another naturalistic ethical system." The problem is that they can do so only by not applying "a rational approach to truth that rejects arguments for a supernatural being." In the final analysis humanism and feminism rest on no surer foundation than Christianity. If one is fantasy and self-delusion then they all are. And an "naturalistic ethical system" involves the difficulty of deducing an "ought" from an "is." My dog does not engage in moral ratiocination; he simply pounces on the prey.
    In the end there is no morality apart from God.

You might also enjoy:
 A Scientific Basis for Morality? 
Letter to a Unitarian Minister 

19 comments:

  1. I asked you to get a working definition of what is an atheist.
    I asked you to go to any mainstream atheist website
    I asked you to use primary sources.
    I asked you to represent them as fairly and as honestly as you would have them represent your own views.

    (...crickets chirping...)

    What do atheists think about morality?

    Think how handy a working definition would be at this point. You could get one maybe at a mainstream atheist website or something.
    Without one, you can’t do anything.

    Many would say, nothing in particular.

    If only there was some way of knowing if this was true or not. If only we had access to the Internet and to Google.

    Atheism is nothing more than lack of belief in a deity. It implies nothing about anything else, so they say.

    Yes indeed, "so they say". However, you never say. You have failed to provide a working definition of what is an atheist. Bit difficult to talk about atheism without one.

    Mr. Barker tells us a great deal about contemporary atheism. He explains to us, for instance, the meaning of the word "atheist": "It turns out that atheism means...

    And yet, Mr Barker seems to have wasted his time. Nary a word from you that you actually agree with this definition. If only there was some way of knowing if this was true or not. If only we had access to the Internet and to Google. If only the atheist community had taken the time to make a host of informative and easy-to-understand youtube videos to explain atheism.
    (sigh)

    ReplyDelete
  2. I basically don't have any problem with Barker's definition of atheism.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Then we can proceed accordingly...

    It is merely the lack of theism. It is not a philosophy of life and it offers no values. It predicts nothing of morality or motives.

    This gels well with the information you gleaned from Qualia Soup…

    The burden of proof is on those who hold to any particular belief, and he simply doesn't believe in anything that can't be proven. There disbelief in one thing doesn't necessarily imply disbelief in anything else.

    So now, working definition of atheism in hand, we can go back to your original question. Once you figure out what an atheist is, the answer to your own question is self-evident. It's a very, very easy answer.
    There's no "chasing" to be done. Honest.
    There's no heavy reading needed. None at all.
    It's really, really easy.

    Bob WheelerJanuary 28, 2013 at 7:59 AM
    So how would an atheist establish a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?


    (…crosses fingers…)

    Bob: "Well Barker,…”

    Nope. That’s not it.

    The wording is " How would an atheist..."

    Let me make this really, really, REALLY clear.
    The question is not "How would Cedric/Dawkins/Kant/Qualiasoup/Nietzche/Barker..."

    The wording is only "How would an atheist etc."

    So...based upon your new-found knowledge on atheists (that you yourself found that is verifiable from multiple independent sources and available to ANYBODY WITH INTERNET ACCESS) and your strict adherence to the Ninth Commandment...what do you think the answer is?

    (...the world holds it's breath in giddy anticipation...)

    ReplyDelete
  4. I do not know why the mind infected by theism has such tremendous difficulty grasping the obvious,that we we can adduce objective information and comparative value from a relative scale. We do it every day! We use relative scales of comparison to weigh things, to measure speed and height and depth, to measure time and temperature and trade. But the theist doesn't try to argue that all these similarly valued relative scales (as with morality and ethics) make our comparative values "fantasy and self-delusion." Yet this same broken argument is brought against non believers all the time, as if without belief in Jesus as god we cannot possibly measure our weight and height, that without familiarity with biblical scripture planes cannot possibly trust topographical elevation and so must necessarily crash into mountains.

    The argument theists bring to the imaginary need for an objective moral code is so poor that it stands as a beacon of just how warped the theistic mind must be bent to make such a special case only against non believers who show nothing but compelling evidence that they are as moral and ethical as any believer... but without the theistic baggage of belief in Oogity Boogity.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Obviously human beings do attach value to things, whether they are theists or not. In fact, economists would argue that this is the essence of a free market. We use money to measure demand (price).
    What prompted this current discussion was a review I did of a book by Greg Epstein, "Good Without God" (earlier in February). Epstein is the Humanist chaplain of Harvard University and his book is an attempt to found an ethical system on an entirely non-theistic basis. I previously reviewed "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris, who attempted to do the same thing. Both Harris and Epstein basically attempt a Utilitarian approach to ethics.
    Utilitarianism works fine if you is simply seeking a personal philosophy of life, and there are certainly many atheists and other non-believers who are personally kind and humane. The problem is when you look at society as a whole and ask what kind of standards should apply to the community as a whole. You could be an environmentalist and argue that we should preserve the environment for future generations. But the cutthroat capitalist living across the street can argue, on the same grounds of pragmatic self-interest, that he should be able to maximize his company's bottom line. And what about the outright criminal? And where does this place minorities? The problem here is finding a universal norm that is binding on everyone.

    ReplyDelete
  6. For the Epstein review, scroll down to the blog post of Feb. 9. For the Harris review, click on the link at the end of this blog post.

    ReplyDelete
  7. I was interested to note the comment made by one astute atheist that "What is considered 'evil' is subject to great debate . . .It is entirely a subjective term based on a non-agreed spectrum of actions and effects and our individual responses to them." (comment on "Why is acting on the presumption of Original Sin moral hypocrisy in action?" -- Questionable Motives, 1/9/2013). Therein lies the whole difficulty. Non-theistic morality inevitably becomes "subjective" and "non-agreed." This is hardly an adequate basis for law and social justice.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Obviously human beings do attach value to things, whether they are theists or not.

    Yes, indeed they do. It's because they are people. Human beings attach value; not gods.

    Non-theistic morality inevitably becomes "subjective" and "non-agreed."

    Theists disagree about morality all the time on all sorts of issues. The attribution to some god does not help. The magical invisible man never makes a personal appearence to act as referee on thorny issues. Never.

    Is it ok to torture people?
    Is birth control ok?
    Is the death penalty ok?
    Should women be allowed to speak or to vote?
    Slavery anyone?
    How about wealth? Can you have money and yet go to heaven?
    The Pope?
    Is it ok to lie and misrepresent issues to people while you preach?
    To quote an old saying "Ask any two Jews and you'll get three opinions". Yet it can be applied to any religion.

    This is hardly an adequate basis for law and social justice.

    It's all that we have as a species.
    There is no magical big brother that bails us out. The societies that we have made and the rules that go along with them...are ours alone.
    Both the good ones and the bad ones.
    We made them.
    Compare the old days with the modern era. Do you really want to live in the European Dark Ages, morally speaking? How about a hundered years ago? How about fifty?
    Before you answer, give yourself black skin.
    Or turn yourself into a woman.
    See the world from a variety of new perspectives.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The point is this: each of us, as human beings, has a conscience, a sort of moral compass to guide us on our way. But we also have a natural impulse to be selfish and mistreat others, often out of a misperception of what is in our own best self-interest. As a result there is a process of rationalization that goes on whenever we are required to make ethical and moral decisions. Belief in God and in an afterlife encourages us to follow the voice of conscience, even if it means ignoring our own perceived self-interest. Secular philosophy, however, often leads into a different direction -- e.g Marx, Nietzsche, Freud, Bentham, Lenin and Rand.

      Delete
    2. The point is this: each of us, as human beings, has a conscience, a sort of moral compass to guide us on our way. But we also have a natural impulse to be selfish and mistreat others, often out of a misperception of what is in our own best self-interest. As a result there is a process of rationalization that goes on whenever we are required to make ethical and moral decisions.

      Sure. That applies to each of us...as human beings.
      No magical middleman need apply.

      Belief in God and in an afterlife encourages us to follow the voice of conscience, even if it means ignoring our own perceived self-interest.

      Why not just follow the voice of conscience?

      Can you not see that such reasoning can apply to any other religion at any time?

      Secular philosophy, however, often leads into a different direction -

      Oh, nonsense. There are plenty of Tea Partiers out there that adore Rand and yet go to church. The prisons are filled with religious people.
      Theists disagree about morality all the time on all sorts of issues.
      Being a theist doesn't help at all.

      Delete
  9. Bob WheelerJanuary 28, 2013 at 7:59 AM
    So how would an atheist establish a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?


    So...based upon your new-found knowledge on atheists (that you yourself found that is verifiable from multiple independent sources and available to ANYBODY WITH INTERNET ACCESS) and your strict adherence to the Ninth Commandment...what do you think the answer is?

    ReplyDelete
  10. The answer to the question is: they cannot. You cannot derive an "ought" from an "is," and to be logically consistent with a naturalistic philosophy you would have to be a nihilist. This does not mean that atheists have not tried, and that is why we have looked at the attempts of Harris, Epstein and Barker to do so. But their attempts to find meaning and value in life involve a blind leap of faith, in much the same way as they accuse religionists of doing, and they are inevitably drawn into some form of ethical relativism, with disastrous consequences to society.
    Here is how Jerry Coyne puts it:
    "And although evolution operates in a purposeless, materialistic way, that doesn't mean that our lives have no purpose. Whether through religious or secular thought, we make our own purposes, meaning, and morality." "Why Evolution Is True," p. 231
    And here is how the Bible puts it:
    ". . . and every man did that which was right in his own eyes" -- Judges 17:6

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The answer to the question is: they cannot.

      Why not?
      Remember your Ninth Commandment.
      Remember the definition of an atheist that you yourself found.
      Apply it.

      ...a naturalistic philosophy...

      How did "naturalistic philosophy" suddenly enter the conversation?
      Bob, if you want to talk about atheism then you have to talk about atheism.

      ...be a nihilist.

      How did nihilism suddenly enter the conversation?
      Bob, if you want to talk about atheism then you have to talk about atheism.

      But their attempts to find meaning and value in life involve a blind leap of faith, in much the same way as they accuse religionists of doing...

      Tu quoque.

      And although evolution operates...

      How did evolution suddenly enter the conversation?
      Bob, if you want to talk about atheism then you have to talk about atheism.

      Lets' try that again...

      You have your definition of atheism that you yourself found.

      Now apply that to your question.
      No misrepresentaions, no misdirection.
      Focus.
      Focus and be honest about it.
      Ready?

      Bob WheelerJanuary 28, 2013 at 7:59 AM
      So how would an atheist establish a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?




      Delete
  11. It all boils down to a very simple, basic question: is there Intelligent Design in nature? How many atheists would be willing to answer the question in the affirmative? How many atheists would be willing to say that the Theory of Evolution is invalid? What, then, does that say about the universe in which we live?
    Granted, there are a number of different ways that an atheist could go with this, but there is only one I've run across who would say that we have an absolute right to anything -- Ayn Rand! Actually Marx and Nietzsche might have been willing to say similar things, but how many contemporary Western atheists would want to identify with any of them? Furthermore it could be argued that Marx was being logically inconsistent -- his socialistic ideas were borrowed from Judaism and Christianity, and he tried to graft them into the stem of atheism by means of "dialectical materialism." But does anyone really believe that any such dialectic is at work in nature?

    ReplyDelete
  12. It all boils down to a very simple, basic question: is there Intelligent Design in nature?

    Extraordinary.
    Now you want to talk about Intelligent Design?
    Bob, seriously, if you want to talk about atheism then...you really do have to talk about atheism.
    Stop procrastinating.

    It all boils down to a very simple, basic question...

    We already have a very simple basic question.
    It's your question.
    I fail to see how you can "boil it down" into another very simple basic question without changing the the question entirely.
    It's almost as if you are...avoiding the question rather than boiling it.

    How many atheists would be willing to answer the question in the affirmative? How many atheists would be willing to say that the Theory of Evolution is invalid? What, then, does that say about the universe in which we live?

    So...that's three more questions? Interesting "boiling process" you have there.

    ...Ayn Rand! Actually Marx and Nietzsche...

    Somehow, mysteriously, Rand and Marx and hoary old Nietzsche have entered the conversation. When do we start talking about atheism?

    "dialectical materialism."

    Wow. That came out of nowhere.

    (..awkward silence...)

    So, if you are finished throwing simply everything into the mix, can we get back to the question?

    You have your definition of atheism that you yourself found.

    Apply that to your question.
    No misrepresentaions, no misdirection.
    (This includes no "boiling down" to create other questions out of thin air to avoid answering the original question.)
    Focus.
    Focus and be honest about it.
    Ready?


    Bob WheelerJanuary 28, 2013 at 7:59 AM
    So how would an atheist establish a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?


    ReplyDelete
  13. The answer is: he cannot. It is impossible, and no one has succeeded in doing it yet, for the simple reason that it is impossible to deduce an "ought" from an "is."

    ReplyDelete
  14. (...sigh...)

    Bob, we both read and write English. Plus your own words are still on your own thread. They have not disappeared. Let's work with what we have.

    The answer is: he cannot.

    Why not?
    What stops an atheist from establishing a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?

    for the simple reason that it is impossible to deduce an "ought" from an "is."

    No, Bob. We are talking about atheism. Remember?
    Remember your definition of atheism?
    Let's go back to it.

    It is merely the lack of theism. It is not a philosophy of life and it offers no values. It predicts nothing of morality or motives.

    This is the definition of atheism that you yourself said to me that you have no problem with.
    No, really. That's what you said. Here's the quote...

    Bob WheelerFebruary 28, 2013 at 3:56 PM
    I basically don't have any problem with Barker's definition of atheism.


    So you agree that atheism is the lack of theism.
    Plus that it predicts nothing about morality etc.
    Right?

    Well, then, you shouldn't be predicting anything...right?

    The answer is: he cannot. It is impossible...

    See that bit? Remember writing it?
    Yeah, well....um...can't do that. You are contradicting yourself.

    Lets' try that again...

    You have your definition of atheism that you yourself found.

    Now apply that to your question.
    No misrepresentaions, no misdirection.
    Focus.
    Focus and be honest about it.
    Ready?

    Bob WheelerJanuary 28, 2013 at 7:59 AM
    So how would an atheist establish a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?


    Remember Bob, the entire Internet is watching you.



    ReplyDelete
  15. The entire internet? Watching me? Wow!
    None of the things you mentioned, however, do not change the fact that atheists have generally not been able to establish a basis for unalienable rights or for duties or obligations, although some have certainly tried. I think that among the books I have reviewed on this blog Sam Harris probably came the closest -- he was distressed by the fact that his anthropologists colleagues could not see anything wrong with women being required to wear burqas in Iran. So he tried to argue that morality is based on human needs, and that science can define what is in man's best interest. But science cannot determine values. Might not someone in Iran be equally disgusted with Western women parading around in public in bikinis?

    ReplyDelete
  16. The entire internet? Watching me? Wow!

    Yes, that's the way it works. Every time you evade or misdirect or break the Ninth Commandment. It reflects badly on you and your community. There's this little thing called reputation.

    None of the things you mentioned, however, do not change the fact that atheists have generally not...

    No, don't shift the goalposts. Read your original question.

    I think that among the books I have reviewed on this blog Sam Harris...

    Ah, short-term memory loss. We've closed this loophole already.
    Let me make this really, really, REALLY clear.

    The question is not "How would Cedric/Dawkins/Kant/Qualiasoup/Nietzche/Barker, Sam Harris..."

    he was distressed by the fact that his anthropologists...

    Don't care. Focus. Stop dithering.

    So he tried to argue that morality is based on human needs

    Don't care. Focus on the question.

    But science cannot determine values.

    Don't care. We can talk about science some other day.

    You have your definition of atheism that you yourself found.

    Now apply that to your question.
    No misrepresentaions, no misdirection.
    Focus.
    Focus and be honest about it.
    Ready?

    Bob WheelerJanuary 28, 2013 at 7:59 AM
    So how would an atheist establish a basis for an "unalienable right," or for a duty or obligation?


    ReplyDelete