Thursday, December 6, 2012

DID MARY MEET AN ANGEL?


                                                    The Annunciation, Lorenzo di Credi

"Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. And having come in, the angel said to her, 'Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!'" (Luke 1:26-28; NKJV).
    One of our readers and frequent commentators, Cedric Katesby, wants to know why we would believe "some guy, writing 2.000 years ago about how he met an angel," if we would not believe Mr. Katesby if he were to say that he had met an angel. The question is a fair one to ask, and deserves a serious answer.
    The Christmas season having set upon us, it is worth noting that in the first two chapters of the Gospel According to Luke there are no less than three different accounts of angels appearing to various people. In the fist of these (Lu. 1:13-20) the angel Gabriel appears to Zacharias, who would become the father of John the Baptist. In the second incident (1:26-38), the same angel appears to Mary, and begins by telling her the words quoted in the heading of this blogpost. In the third incident (2:8-14), a whole choir of angels appears to the shepherds to announce the birth of the Savior. So the question is, was Luke relating historical facts which cannot be ignored, or are these mere myths and legends which can be easily dismissed?
    Mr. Katesby's question does, in fact, strike right at the very heart of the crisis of Western Civilization. At no other time of the year is the influence of Christianity on Western culture more keenly felt than at Christmas. And yet the holiday revolves around a narrative which many educated Westerners no longer believe. In the end it all comes back to the historical reliability of the four gospels.
    Luke himself certainly believed that he has relating historical fact. In his prologue he tells us that he "followed all things closely for some time past," and that his aim was so that his readers might "have certainty concerning the things you have been taught" (Lu. 1:3,4; ESV). Moreover, he tells us that he had access to "those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and minister of the word," meaning, no doubt, the apostles, those who had lived and worked with Jesus and had been sent by Him to proclaim the message of the gospel (v. 2).
    So then, why believe Luke and not Mr. Katesby? What Mr. Katesby undoubtedly wants us to say is that we would believe neither. His grounds for saying this are that the claim of an alleged witness about a supernatural event has to be gauged against what we already know about reality, and there are no verifiable instances in our modern experience of angels appearing to people. The rational inference, then, is that such appearances do not happen, and any claims to the contrary should be viewed with suspicion.
    How much weight one attaches to this argument will depend partially on one's worldview. If one is a naturalistic materialist, the argument is practically conclusive. Not only is it highly unlikely that such incidents have occurred in the past, but if there actually was such a phenomenon a natural explanation must be sought. The subject in question might have met a mysterious looking person, or he may simply have been hallucinating. (Now that recreational pot is legal in Washington state and Colorado, who knows what sort of apparitions might appear in the days to come!) In this case almost no amount of evidence will be sufficient to convince the determined skeptic.
    But if one is a Christian theist there is no inherent impossibility in an angel appearing to human beings. It is quite conceivable that they exist and have appeared to people in the past. So why not today? Might not Mr. Katesby expect a friendly knock on his door someday?
    A Christian understanding of such things must be based on Scripture – the written instructions that God has given us to guide us through life. While God is theoretically capable of doing anything He wants anywhere and at anytime He wants, He ordinarily works according to a certain pattern. Miracles are generally restricted to certain periods in history. They are meant to function as "signs" to validate the ministry of a prophet or apostle. They usually occur at the decisive turning points of redemptive history. The first of these was in the time of Moses during the exodus of Israel from Egypt. The second was during the ministries of Elijah and Elisha, when the nation of Israel was sunk in a state of degradation and apostasy. The final time was the climactic moment in history when the Savior was born into the world. Obviously some means had to be employed to explain to Mary the unique role that she was to play in the drama, and hence the mission of Gabriel. It was an extraordinary event under an extraordinary circumstance.
    Since the close of the apostolic age the Christian ministry has largely proceeded by ordinary means. The Holy Spirit teaches and leads through the illumination of Scripture. And while Mr. Katesby certainly has his rightful place in the cosmic scheme of things, it is unlikely that God is going to send an angel knocking on his door. (It is probably the RCMP at the door!)
    But to return to Luke for a moment, how do we know that he is telling the truth about Mary's experience? In all likelihood his source of information was Mary herself. He generally tells the story from her perspective, and in two places he makes the intriguing comment "But Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart" (Lu. 2:19,51; NKJV). Significantly, in this section of the narrative Luke shifts to a style of Greek that has a highly Semitic coloring, suggested an underlying Hebrew source, either in the form of oral testimony or a written document. And from what we know of Luke's use of Mark, Luke is very careful in his use of sources. All of which points back to Mary herself. The story is an extraordinary one. How could she ever forget?
    And what did the angel tell her? That she would conceive by the Holy Spirit and give birth to Jesus, that her child would be the Son of God and would reign on the throne of David forever.
    As the angels later told the shepherds: "Glory to God in the highest, / And on earth peace, goodwill toward men!" (Lu. 2:14). Have a happy holiday!

Related blogposts you might find interesting:
Are the Gospels Historically Reliable? 
Who Wrote the Gospels? 
How Do We Know that Jesus Rose from the Dead? 
Doubting Thomas 

10 comments:

  1. Oh Bob.
    Where to begin?

    Firstly, there's the business of you bearing false witness.

    In this case almost no amount of evidence will be sufficient to convince the determined skeptic.

    You made this up. What on Earth is a "determined skeptic"? Is that like a "determined electrician" or something?
    Before you go off and confuse yourself and other people on what a skeptic would or would not do, why not quote skeptics directly and honestly?
    Let me help you with that.
    Skepticism is a process; not a position.

    The subject in question might have met a mysterious looking person, or he may simply have been hallucinating.

    Is this all that a skeptic would suggest?
    Really?
    Only two options?
    I had this strange notion (from reading lots of skeptic websites) that skeptics were a tad more thorough than that.

    Not only is it highly unlikely that such incidents have occurred in the past...

    Where do you get this from?
    What has "likelihood" to do with something actually happening?
    The basic rule is that extraordinary things demand extraordinary evidence.
    Extraordinary things do happen in real life.

    It's NOT "extraordianary things are unlikely to have occured so we can say they didn't occur."

    ...but if there actually was such a phenomenon a natural explanation must be sought.

    Again, wrong. Any and all explanations are up for grabs. You just have to demonstrate your claim with evidence.

    One of our readers and frequent commentators, Cedric Katesby, wants to know why we would believe "some guy, writing 2.000 years ago about how he met an angel," if we would not believe Mr. Katesby if he were to say that he had met an angel. The question is a fair one to ask, and deserves a serious answer.


    If there was a genuine answer some where in there, it got lost in the sermonizing. Strip away the smokescreed and waffle and try again.
    What's the short, blunt version?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, it's a relief to know that you're so open-minded!

      No, it isn't. There's nothing in any of my statements about angels that can be labeled as closed-minded.
      Quite the opposite, in fact.
      Feel free to quote me on and and all my statements.
      Again, (and this is important to remember) skepticism is a process; not a position. Find out what it means first.

      So what do YOU think happened to Mary?

      I was hoping you actually try to answer the question instead of either ignoring it or posing a question of your own or giving a pat answer and then changing topics with a question of your own. Why do you keep doing this? It's so much nicer when you can just give an honest answer.

      The question is a fair one to ask, and deserves a serious answer.

      I'd like to think so too. However, it got lost in the sermonizing. Strip away the smokescreed and waffle and try again.
      What's the short, blunt version?

      Just in case you've forgotten, let me quote myself...in full.

      Go back 2000 years.
      Some guy is writing about how he met an angel.
      (A Greek or a Hittite or a whatever)
      His document survives the ages and you get to read it.
      (It's a real document. Absolutely authentic.)
      Are you prepared to believe his account of how he spoke to an angel?


      I'd really appreciate it if you read what I wrote rather than creatively re-interpret my own words and go off on a tangent all on your own.

      Delete
  2. Well, it's a relief to know that you're so open-minded! So what do YOU think happened to Mary? Did she actually have a conversation with the angel Gabriel, as reported?

    ReplyDelete
  3. "Are you prepared to believe his account of how he spoke to an angel?"
    I am prepared to believe Luke's account of how Mary spoke to an angel.

    ReplyDelete
  4. "Are you prepared to believe his account of how he spoke to an angel?"
    I am prepared to believe Luke's account of how Mary spoke to an angel.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I am prepared to believe Luke's account of how Mary spoke to an angel.

    Yes but what about some guy 2000 years ago?
    Explain your methodology.

    Go through it, step-by-step.
    Explain honestly, without any waffle, why you are willing to accept account A of someone having a chat with an angel as opposed to account B.

    You are open-minded, right?

    We can even throw some of your own extras into the mix!
    Try any combo of conditions you like to make it work.

    You yourself have a high regard for Hittites having a respectable historical literature, right? (assuming the guy is a Hittite).
    Does that honestly matter to you or is it ultimately irrelevent?

    We could throw in the fact that this guy himself certainly believed that he has relating historical fact.
    Would this make you swoon?

    Plus he absolutely gushes in his prologue that he followed all things closely for some time past since he's an eyewitness to what he himself saw.
    Would that do it for you or would you "closemindedly" dismiss it?

    Heck, let's make it that he swears up and down that he had access to those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and priests who are witnesses to him being an eyewitness.
    Impressive stuff.
    (Priests! My goodness)
    Or maybe it's not that impressive upon reflection?

    Let's have the people in his account that are eyewitnesses to his eyewitnessing are awestruck by his authoritative tone as he describes having a nice chat with the angel. Have it so that his personal demeanor clearly indicated that he was perfectly honest and sincere and that he made a gosh, wow, wonderful positive impression on a large number of the people.
    Does that make the account suddenly more credible...ish?

    Go through it, step-by-step.
    Explain honestly, without any waffle, why you are willing to accept account A of someone having a chat with and angel as opposed to account B.

    Explain your methodology. Make it watertight and make it absolutely reasonable.
    No special pleading and no double standards (and yes, I expect you to look up those terms carefully and keep them in mind before you attempt some glib handwavey, evasive reply).

    ReplyDelete
  6. Part of the problem here is that it is a hypothetical question. To my knowledge belief in angels is pretty much confined to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam -- angels are "messengers" (that is what the term literally means) of the one true God. I am not aware of angelic beings in any of the polytheistic religions, including the Hittite.
    There are several questions here, however. 1) How do I know that the Gospel of Luke is inspired Scripture? and 2) What do I do with modern claims of revelation and prophecy, such as Islam, Mormonism and Pentacostalism? Which would you like me to discuss?

    ReplyDelete
  7. Part of the problem here is that it is a hypothetical question.

    No, it isn't.
    You exist. You are not hypothetical.
    (Ok, so we've never met in real life but I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt.)
    You accept the existence of angels. That's not hypothetical.
    You accept certain specific accounts of people having a good ol' chinwag with angels. That's not hypothetical.
    You reject other accounts of people having a chinwag with angels.
    That's not hypothetical.
    You are prepared to put a level of likelihood on ME (?!?!?) having a chinwag with angels and you seriously doubt it.
    That's not hypothetical.

    You have a methodology. It exists.

    Maybe it's a good methodology or maybe it's a really badly thought out methodology that breaks down under close scrutiny. That's not hypothetical.

    Sometimes, for you, a claim about an angel gets the green light.
    Sometimes, for you, a claim about an angel gets the red light.
    There's a process going on there. A methodology.

    I want to know what it is. Go through it, step-by-step.
    Explain honestly, without any waffle, why you are willing to accept account A of someone having a chat with an angel as opposed to account B.
    I want you to demonstrate that you know yourself what it is.
    Articulate it.

    No special pleading and no double standards are allowed.

    (I've mentioned the bit about special pleading and double standards in the forlorn hope that you will refresh your memory on what they mean and responsibly take them into consideration before you give me your answer. It's a long shot but I have my fingers crossed. Google can help you with that.)

    There are several questions here...

    No, there are not.
    Those questions are yours-not mine.
    I'd really appreciate it if you read what I wrote rather than creatively re-interpret my own words and go off on a tangent all on your own.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Okay. Here we go.
    Essentially we are evaluating the testimony of witnesses, so the procedure is not too terribly different from what we would use in a courtroom. Imagine that you are in the jury and that Luke, Mohammed, or Joseph Smith was on the witness stand. How would you tell if any of them is telling the truth?
    Basically you would look at the following things:
    1) the character of the witness -- does he appear to be trustworthy? What do we know about him personally? Does he have any ulterior motives or conflicts of interest? Or does he appear to be honest and sincere?
    2) Is his testimony consistent with itself? Does it contradict itself?
    3)Are there any corroborating witnesses? Did anyone else see the same event?
    4) Is the testimony consistent with the already known facts of the case.
    Luke passes all four tests. (I know Dan Barker will take issue with me on that, but I think he is a clumsy exigete). Mohammed and Joseph Smith fail #3. Joseph Smith also fails #1.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Imagine that you are in the jury and that Luke, Mohammed, or Joseph Smith was on the witness stand.

    Only they are not.
    Your cannot get them to the witness stand.
    Your analogy fails.
    Imagination is all very well but let's stick to reality.
    Work with what you have.

    Sometimes, for you, a claim about an angel gets the green light.
    Sometimes, for you, a claim about an angel gets the red light.
    There's a process going on there. A methodology.

    You have not presented a methodology yet.
    You've indulged in wishful thinking.
    I'm asking you to explain in practical, useful detail what you do in reality.

    There's claim A about someone chatting with angels in front of you on your desk. Next to it is claim B.
    What do you do?
    What do you actually do in the real world?
    Go through it, step-by-step.
    Don't gloss over any of the steps. Feel free to give good and bad examples.
    I want you to demonstrate that you know yourself what it is.

    Maybe it's a good methodology or maybe it's a really badly thought out methodology that breaks down under close scrutiny.
    (No special pleading and no double standards are allowed.)

    ReplyDelete